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"On a different note, I do think that KOH has suffered because Fox didn't know how to promote it. It is not really a film about battles, but an intelligent medieval political drama about the relationship between, religion, land, war and power. Not the most enticing tag line to have over a film poster "

Diane.You are so right -- especially the part about the "tag line" !! :rolleyes: And I would like to add, not the most intelligent time (summer) to release a thought-provoking medieval political drama.

Promotion and timing.two very important considerations. Fox dropped the ball on both counts. :rant:

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Interesting discussion today with many good points, Diane and Big Bird. Thanks for getting it going. And yes, Fox certainly didn’t promote KoH well. In fact, I wonder if they even knew what they wanted, which is part of the problem. And here’s my two cents worth…

I was listening to the soundtrack while driving into work this morning and I got to thinking about all the trade-offs that had to be made in editing this film down to its theatrical run time: length, action vs. drama, history vs. story, religion vs. politics vs. personal belief, and so on. Something that I think got short-changed in the shuffle was the whole thread of what becoming a knight meant, in general, and to Balian in particular. We know that the concept of the knight is one of the major reasons that Sir Ridley wanted to make the movie and the knighting of Balian and then later of the common men of Jerusalem are presented as critical events in the story.

I believe that becoming a knight is what saved Balian, that is, it is what he held on to in order to pull himself back into living and it gave him a purpose and a belief system on which to base his actions. Now, I understood this due to a number of factors – age, education, personal interests, and because I really “studied up” for this film. And Orlando did a perfect job of portraying what Balian was experiencing. But the naïve viewer may have had a harder time seeing this because s/he wasn’t as prepared as I (or any one of us here at Ka-Bloom) was.

One place where the extended version could really flesh out this whole knighthood concept is in the sequence where Godfrey knights Balian. I am willing to bet that there is much more footage leading up to it. That entire knighting ceremony has such a distinctive ambience. We get the feeling of mystery, but so much more is hinted at. We can see in the faces of all involved, but especially Balian’s, that it is a transformative experience. What I would like is more of the set-up.

I agree, Lisa, that Orlando understood and could express what the movie was about and what Balian was about. And I also think the extended DVD will get rave reviews. Too bad that the theatrical release wasn’t handled better, but that’s the breaks. It has pulled in over $204,000,000 at the box office worldwide. And hopefully we will eventually get to see the entire movie Ridley Scott and his cast and crew made.

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Something that I think got short-changed in the shuffle was the whole thread of what becoming a knight meant, in general, and to Balian in particular.

I agree, Patty. Yes it was about the crusades, the good, bad and ugly of those wars, but as Orlando kept describing, it's more about a man's transformation from the depths of bereavemnt, of questing to find out what God would allow this to happen to him. Which leads me to also agree with you on the following:

I believe that becoming a knight is what saved Balian, that is, it is what he held on to in order to pull himself back into living and it gave him a purpose and a belief system on which to base his actions.

We watch this transformation happen and it does indeed save Balian. In the end he is satisfied to go back to his life the way it was.that's what he's really about. But it does give us something to wonder over, if Balian hadn't been knighted.

That entire knighting ceremony has such a distinctive ambience.  We get the feeling of mystery, but so much more is hinted at.  We can see in the faces of all involved, but especially Balian’s, that it is a transformative experience.

Yeah, you can just see it written all over Balian's face. This was, for me, one of the most moving and powerful pieces in the movie. Makes me think about Cameron Crowe's comment about one particular shot in ETown, "he gets it". Balian, perfectly portrayed by Orlando, gets it. It's almost like you can see the dawning.OH. MY. GOD.I'm being knighted. I too look forward to the setting up of this whole scene.

Great conversation today Patty, Diane and BigBird! Thanks again for letting me share my two-cents worth!

Lisa Q

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but now I remember he also said something about the fact that the war was not only destructive, but profitable and he wasn't sure that was well played-out in the script.

Ah yes, but as the line 'they pay their taxes' illustrated, profit can also be had from peace! In medieval times, with minimal literacy and any taxation or tithes having to be collected 'door-to-door' so to speak, the collection of taxes requires manpower and a stable and static population, something that could only be acheived without war. Something I think KOH was trying to get across. That scene on the beach with Muslims praying was a very effective way of illustrating how depite all the religious fervour the crusaders were able to tolerate other faiths, as long as their money was good.

It is also important to remember that in such times, trade was virtually impossible without peace, for logistical reasons. There is an historical, economic theory called the Pirenne (sp?) Thesis, that points to the crusades as a key point in economic history, where as a deliberate side effect of of the religious fervour that surrounded the crusades, Europeans took back the vital trade routes of the Mediterreanean from Arabs. This meant that Europe was able to find its way out of the Dark Ages, and resulted in Europe becoming wealthier and eventually leading to the Renaissance. The central tract of this thesis is that the Crusades and the pushing back of the Moors, was the beginnings of capitalism.

Yes, essentially KOH was about Balian, but it was also about the politics and profit to be had fighting over a peace of land, albeit one that had deep cultural and religious significance for all those involved.

Said suits just don't know what to do with a 'thinking' epic. I agree that in 10 years time KOH will doubtless be a respected film. It's what happened to "Blade Runner", which didn't exactly set the world on fire when first released.

:lmao: You have just reminded me, of how the original cinema reviews of Bladerunner, accused Harrison Ford of sulking throughout the film instead of acting, sound familiar.

Diane

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That scene on the beach with Muslims praying was a very effective way of illustrating how depite all the religious fervour the crusaders were able to tolerate other faiths, as long as their money was good.

Good point. I didn't actually reflect on that illustration until probably the second or third viewing.

It is also important to remember that in such times, trade was virtually impossible without peace, for logistical reasons.

Another point also brought up by the historian I spoke of earlier. That really made me stop and think, we needed peace for prosperity.

Yes, essentially KOH was about Balian, but it was also about the politics and profit to be had fighting over a peace of land, albeit one that had deep cultural and religious significance for all those involved.

I agree, Diane. Makes me wish I could see the movie one more time right now so I could look at it from that point of view. I really did watch it from the point of view that it was about Balian's journey, quest. Interesting how you get caught up in a particular theme or view.

Well when it comes back to our cheap theater, I'll watch it again and think of it for its other significant messages as well.

Love that I can gush Orlando and be enlightened as well! :)

Lisa Q

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I need to know, did the red-haired fellow who showed Balian about eating crab go on the same ship? I thought I saw him one other time getting ready for battle, but then no more. Did he die in the shipwreck? I can't find a place on the web to ask these questions. :oh: If anyone knows of such a thing, please let me know.

Pony :knight:

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I need to know, did the red-haired fellow who showed Balian about eating crab go on the same ship?  I thought I saw him one other time getting ready for battle, but then no more.  Did he die in the shipwreck?  I can't find a place on the web to ask these questions.  :oh: If anyone knows of such a thing, please let me know.

Pony    :knight:

I've been wondering this too. I've convinced myself that he's the body lying just to the right of Balian as he first wakes up. Which would mean that he dies, which is sad, because I liked him. Figures.

I'm frustrated that even after 7 viewings, there is one line Saladin says that I can't quite decipher. I figured out all the other ones, but am stumped by this - in the scene where they discuss how "God alone determines the outcome of battles" etc. etc.:

"When I am not king, (?????). Thank you for your visit. Thank you for your visit."

Anyone have a clue? Someone, anyone? :blink:

Help me keep my sanity, this is driving me nuts! :bash:

Christa

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"When I am not king, (?????). Thank you for your visit. Thank you for your visit."

Anyone have a clue? Someone, anyone? :blink:

Help me keep my sanity, this is driving me nuts! :bash:

Christa

I'm pretty sure he says, "I quake for Islam." which I took to mean he fears what will happen to Islam when he is no longer King. Someone let me know if I'm wrong.

cheers,

~squiggles

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Ah, my peeps, KOH junkies! Some of us are going AGAIN tomorrow, so I will add this one to my list of things to look out for and will ask the others to keep an eye peeled as well. :wave:

Now, the next question, is the tall fellow with the shaved head who discovers Balian in Jeruselem Godfrey's nephew? In the credits, what is his character's name? I know the bishop had better lines, but not more, that's certain. It wasn't even an amazing performance, but good, and I can't seem to find any information.

I'm like you, Christa, I hope some others will tell us what they know. Gah, so many details! Like, since the Hospitler didn't go on that ship, did the other man who was looking out for him go then or later? What was HIS name? Ack!

Such a wonderful way to spend a hot afternoon! Thanks, squiggles, for the input. :shiny:

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I'm pretty sure he says, "I quake for Islam." 

AH. Thank you, thank you! :notworthy: That sounds right and works for me. My sanity is hereby restored.

I have no idea who many of the supporting characters are. Having them listed in the credits does no good because you never hear what their names are in the movie! I've made it a point to listen for names, and they're just not there. This is the ONLY thing about KOH that bugs me. Oh well. As I'm fond of saying - it's not a perfect world.

Christa

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Oh, good, it's not just me. I did check again during the 5th viewing, and squiggles is correct. Good thing she caught it. Now, seriously, does anyone know the name of the tall guy with no hair, the one who said, "Come with us." You know, the one who becomes Balian's right hand man. There are no names, it isn't just me. I have gone to all these showings trying to figure it out.

Also, did any of you catch some of the music listed at the end credits? Marina came up with the title of the piece played after the King died. I love the guitar part at the beginning. Anyone know?

I may get to go again on Thursday, can you believe it? :whistle:

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Now, seriously, does anyone know the name of the tall guy with no hair, the one who said, "Come with us." You know, the one who becomes Balian's right hand man.  There are no names, it isn't just me.  I have gone to all these showings trying to figure it out.

I believe the actor in question is Velibor Topic, who plays Almaric. If you check out the KOH information on IMDB and click on Almaric's name, you can read dialogue from the movie, and the dialogue assigned to Almaric is spoken by the tall bald-headed man, if I am not mistaken.

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Thank you, drakius, I didn't know about that part. Now you have opened up a new way to get information. It also showed the other songs on the film. This is great.

Speaking of great, didn't he deserve more credit than he got? Of course, that's true of nearly everyone who worked on it. I get so upset when I read the negative stuff. One of the comments I read tonight even asked if Orlando was able to move his eyebrows, what a thing to ask, comparing him to Colin Farrell.

I should stop now, I just wanted to thank you for the help. And welcome! :knight:

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I'm frustrated that even after 7 viewings, there is one line Saladin says that I can't quite decipher.  I figured out all the other ones, but am stumped by this - in the scene where they discuss how "God alone determines the outcome of battles" etc. etc.:

"When I am not king, (?????).  Thank you for your visit.  Thank you for your visit."

I finally believe I heard it correctly on my umpteenth viewing, and I agree that he says, "When I am no longer king, I will quake for Islam. Thank you for your visit. Thank you for your visit."

Very regal line and delivery, I thought.

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Guest drakius
Thank you, drakius, I didn't know about that part.  Now you have opened up a new way to get information.  It also showed the other songs on the film. This is great. 

You're welcome Ponycobbler. I love the IMDB. It's a great reference source.

And I agree, that actor did a very good job. I have no quibbles with any of the acting in this movie save for Brendan Gleeson, who was just too over the top for my tastes.

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That's funny, cause that line caused me some trouble too. I finally thought I heard him say:

"When I am no longer king, I will pray for Islam."

But I like what you said, Sleepy. "I will quake for Islam". That sounds more ominous. :bat:

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Okay, here's a new question for everyone:

Did anyone else notice a problem with the sound during his Jerusalem speech?

He says: "Which is more holy? The wall? The mosque? The sepulchre?"

The first four times I saw the movie, everything was fine. The last four times, I noticed that a word was missing. You can see his mouth move, but the word "more" is missing from the sound, like they cut it out.

At first I thought it was just a sound problem in the theater I was in. Then I went to another theater and it happened again. What's the deal? Don't all movie theaters get the same version of the film? Are there high quality and low quality versions? That could explain it, since the problem occurred at the "cheaper" theaters.

Anyone else encounter this or have some insight? :hmmm:

Christa

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I didn't notice that omission, Christa. KOH is presently at the local dollar theater here in Charlotte, NC., and although the surroundings are less than perfect, the actual movie quality is quite good. So I guess whatever you noticed was just a fluke. :huh:

I, of course, will be seeing KOH again this week ! :w00t:

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